长安街知事|记者刘晓琰实习生张信云
“一带一路”倡议越发令美国如鲠在喉。9月9日，美国总统拜登在印度新德里参加G20峰会时宣布，美国与印度、中东国家和欧盟签署协议，建设可以连接相关国家的铁路网络和海上航线。
拜登视之为“改变游戏规则的区域投资”，美国全国公共广播电视台（NPR）指出，这是拜登寻求对抗中国“一带一路”倡议的方法之一。
而“方法之二”就是金融体制改革。早在今年8月，美国政府就放风拜登将在G20峰会上推进全球金融机构改革，通过炒作中国“制造债务陷阱”以说服发展中国家抛弃与中国的合作。美联社还炮制了长文《中国贷款将世界最贫穷国家推向崩溃边缘》，宣称巴基斯坦、斯里兰卡、肯尼亚等国是“受害者”。
中国让巴基斯坦等国陷入“债务陷阱”了吗？某些西方国家近年来频频挑拨中国和巴基斯坦的关系，抹黑中巴经济走廊。如何看待这些挑拨中巴关系的行为？中巴关系经得起考验吗？
亚洲生态文明研究与发展研究所首席执行官沙克尔·艾哈迈德·拉马伊（ShakeelAhmadRamay）就中巴关系及“一带一路”倡议的影响等与记者进行了分享。
中国从不强行给他国上“民主课”
知事：今年是“一带一路”倡议提出十周年，也是中巴经济走廊（CPEC）启动十周年。中巴经济走廊是“一带一路”倡议的重要先行先试项目，巴基斯坦在CPEC下取得了哪些发展成就？
沙克文·艾哈迈德·拉马伊：“一带一路”倡议的提出源自对当时全球情况的审慎反思，其影响也需在此背景下考察，才得以真切理解。
当年，全球贫困率居高不下，粮食安全是急需解决的重大问题，超过8亿人口没有足够的食物，数十亿人无法获得安全的饮用水。在能源和电力方面，同样有数十亿人口无法获得可靠且负担得起的电力。基础设施的匮乏也是一个显而易见的问题，基础设施投资缺口估计已超过5万亿美元，而且投资缺口一直存在。
全球各地的人们都期待着有人能站出来，为填补这一缺口做出贡献，为困难群体的生活带来积极的改变。这是迅速减缓贫困、解决粮食安全问题的关键一步。
我在深入研究中国国内发展后发现，中国在解决自身问题的同时，也在逐步向世界开放。中国意识到，中国特色社会主义的发展必须融入全球发展，和世界共享繁荣。在2012年至2013年期间，中国已是全球第二大经济体，成为包括美国在内的120多个国家和地区的最大贸易伙伴，在全球舞台上占据了中心位置。如果中国不承担国际责任，不分享繁荣成果，将无法取得进步。
在上述双重背景下，中国提出了“一带一路”倡议，也为这个世界带来了重大变化。
得益于基础设施的改善，贸易也为这些积极变化做出了重要贡献。地区贸易的增加，配合有利的政策环境，又显著推动了全球贸易。预计将有大约4000万人因此摆脱极端贫困，其中大部分位于发展中国家和最不发达国家。
这些报告还探讨了改善基础设施和其他形式的互联互通的潜力。需要指出的是，这些结论而非来自于中国或巴基斯坦等对华友好国家的政府报告，而是源自国际性机构世界银行的一份评估报告，着重突显了“一带一路”倡议的积极贡献。
在2018-2019年间，中国又有了一个新认识——在追求发展梦想和全球合作的同时，保护环境和应对气候变化同样至关重要。中国清楚地意识到，实现繁荣与可持续、和平与发展，需要对环境可持续性和应对气候变化做出承诺。
随之，中国建立了多种绿色发展机制，例如“一带一路”绿色发展国际联盟论坛。中国还开始减少对煤炭和化石燃料的投资，转向风能、太阳能和水电等清洁和可再生能源，并投资了低排放的绿色产业。回顾“一带一路”倡议十年历程，发生了许多值得庆祝的积极变化。
知事：华盛顿方面声称，中国向巴基斯坦和其他“一带一路”合作伙伴提供的发展融资是一个债务陷阱。您如何看待美国诋毁中国通过“掠夺性融资进入并削弱东道国并获得政治影响力”？“一带一路”倡议使巴基斯坦陷入债务危机了吗？
沙克文·艾哈迈德·拉马伊：从经济角度来看，“一带一路”倡议下的贷款本质上是生产性投资，主要面向如能源等关键部门和道路等基础设施建设，在这些领域的投资可以创造巨大的经济机会。
中国通过中巴经济走廊向巴基斯坦投资了至少620亿美元，这是“一带一路”倡议的一部分。其中只有57亿美元是贷款形式，以投资的方式被用于巴基斯坦的能源部门，这对巴基斯坦来说是雪中送炭。
当巴基斯坦每年因电力而造成的损失高达40至50亿美元，巴政府致力于解决能源问题之时，来自中国的贷款成功地为工业提供了动力，也促进了巴企业和人民生活的改善，在经济平衡方面发挥了关键作用。
从本质上讲，生产性的债务通常不会导致债务陷阱，只要债务国能够利用这笔资金促进本国相关行业的发展。巴基斯坦的实际情况证明，“债务陷阱”叙事只是西方捏造的谎言，巴基斯坦的开伯尔-普赫图赫瓦省（KPK）、旁遮普省和其他地区都没有经历所谓的“债务陷阱”。
巴基斯坦瓜达尔港资料图。图源：视觉中国
另外，西方媒体经常讨论斯里兰卡和赞比亚的债务问题，却从不告诉国际社会具体的数据。
在斯里兰卡的债务构成中，来自西方私人金融机构的借款高达近50%，赞比亚的情况也差不多。相比之下，中国债务仅占斯里兰卡从亚洲开发银行获得债务总额的10%多一点，还提供比西方金融机构更优惠的贷款条件。
50%的债务都不是陷阱，区区10%的中国债务怎么就成了“陷阱”？这种指控在经济上站不住脚。就连约翰斯·霍普金斯大学等美国机构进行的研究调查，也没有发现中国制造“债务陷阱”的证据。面对海量的信息，区分哪些是美西方国家的宣传、哪些是事实，这一点很重要。
知事：您认为西方国家为什么要炒作“中国债务陷阱”理论?
沙克文·艾哈迈德·拉马伊：西方长期以来一直宣扬西式的民主自由和经济秩序理念，认为这是唯一可行的发展路径和国际治理的终极解决方案。可是西方的模式和经济体系经常受到军工复合体的影响，倾向于打着民主的旗号干涉他国事务，实际上与其所坚持的民主原则背道而驰。如果小国不听指挥，就有可能招来“颜色革命”。
然而，中国已用自身的发展成果向世界证明，不同的发展模式都可以茁壮成长。
在发展方式上，中国艰苦奋斗式的成长历程不同于西方历史上殖民掠夺式的资本积累，这对一直试图通过掌控全球局势来阻碍其他国家独立发展的西方来说，简直难以相信。
在发展理念上，中国从不强行给其他发展中国家上“民主课”，也不插手其内政。中国向世界提供了一个选择：让我们在不干涉彼此事务的前提下，共同致力于经济发展。
中国的发展方式、理念和成果，从各个方面挑战了先前占主导地位的西方叙事，西方对此产生了危机感和随之而来的猜忌。
知事：中巴经济走廊已走过第一阶段，主要解决了巴基斯坦关键基础设施和能源短缺问题。如今，已进入高质量发展的第二阶段，计划在多个领域开启新合作。您认为第二阶段的合作重点将是什么？
沙克文·艾哈迈德·拉马伊：第二阶段有几个关键的着力领域。在工业化领域，中巴双方已郑重承诺启动工业化进程，首要举措便是设立经济特区。在最初的阶段，亟需发展基础设施，包括能源和农村基础设施，现在它们已经基本建设完成。第二阶段旨在进一步提高和加强巴基斯坦的生产能力。两国正在共同努力，推动一些产业从中国转移至巴基斯坦，并鼓励增加对巴基斯坦的投资。
农业合作对巴基斯坦至关重要，因为当前巴基斯坦的经济体系以农业为基础。农业对巴基斯坦国内生产总值的直接贡献超过20%，其间接贡献也不可忽视。农业生产为巴基斯坦的出口产品提供了不可或缺的原材料，如棉花、皮革制品、大米、芒果等。
第三个关键领域是融入第四次工业革命。未来几年，中巴双方都会高度重视科学技术发展。中国企业正在巴基斯坦开展许多业务，两国政府也在合作提升巴基斯坦机构的技术能力。中国还在推动两国的教育交流，鼓励巴基斯坦学生前往中国学习。
尽管两国在旅游、能源等其他领域也会有更高水平的合作，但我仍认为双方的重点仍会放在上述的核心领域。
不要掉入“反叙事”的陷阱
知事：在中国，我们称巴基斯坦为“巴铁”，您听说过吗？意思是中巴是“铁杆兄弟”。您如何看待当前的中巴关系，它在双边合作中扮演了怎样的角色？
沙克文·艾哈迈德·拉马伊：我们称之为巴中兄弟情谊，这份独特的友谊已经持续了一代人的时间，成为了两国友谊的一大特点。它超越了传统的国际政治互动，建立在相互尊重和真诚关怀的基础上。历史上，无论是中国还是巴基斯坦，都展现了在对方遇到困境时仗义援助的精神，我们是彼此关爱的兄弟，不是袖手旁观的外人，这种真诚的互助精神贯穿两国交往的始终，成就了这份特殊的友谊，也构筑了中巴关系坚定的基石。
正如中国国家主席习近平在2015年对巴基斯坦进行国事访问时所说：“这是我首次访问巴基斯坦，但我感觉就像到自己兄弟家中探访一样。”这番比喻意味深长，如果你对比中国与其他国家交往时所用的措辞，就会发现中国不会对任何其他国家使用“兄弟”这个词。也就是说，当中国使用“兄弟”这个词时，意味着中国真的视我们为“兄弟”。
中巴关系与西方国家对国际关系的看法有着根本的不同，因为在西方的国际关系理论和实践中，利益最重要，利益高于一切，国际关系中没有友谊的余地，任何国家只有有利可图，他们才会与之交往。而在中国的意识形态中，处理国际关系的本质特征是相互尊重，而不是利益第一。
早在20世纪80年代，一位中国官员就明言，中国人在巴基斯坦做生意，并非单纯以商业交易的眼光看待，而是以兄弟情谊相待。由此可见，中国人看重的绝不仅是利益，更是两国友谊的纽带。在历经风雨洗礼后，中巴两国关系在每一次危机面前都愈加坚韧。
可以毫不夸张地说，自建交以来，巴基斯坦和中国始终如兄弟一般同心协力。上世纪70年代，正是巴基斯坦成为了拉近中国与美国之间关系的纽带，促使中国走向国际舞台。而在上世纪60年代，巴基斯坦也积极支持中国加入联合国，为中国融入国际社会起到了重要的推动作用。
另一方面，中国在巴基斯坦持续投入了大量资金，在中巴经济走廊启动之前，中国企业就在巴基斯坦累计投资了100至150亿美元。随着中巴经济走廊的启动，两国关系得到了进一步深化。相互尊重一直是两国关系的核心要素，中巴都没有把对方当外人。在这种相互尊重和理解下，中巴友谊得以共同成长，历久弥坚。
知事：我们注意到，某些西方国家近年来频频挑拨中国和巴基斯坦的关系。比如，去年，巴基斯坦遭遇了前所未有的洪涝灾害，美国媒体就开始炒作所谓的“中国未全力帮助巴基斯坦抗洪”的说法。巴基斯坦发生袭击事件，一些心怀叵测的西方媒体借机抹黑巴基斯坦，抹黑中巴经济走廊。您如何看待这些挑拨中巴关系的行为？他们的目的是什么？中巴关系经得起考验吗？
沙克文·艾哈迈德·拉马伊：这不是一个新现象。
从新中国成立以来，巴基斯坦和中国的兄弟情谊始终如一。两国关系不仅坚定，而且还在不断加强。
然而，随着中巴经济走廊的扩大，我们目睹了渲染炒作和恶意诬蔑纷至沓来，试图阻碍中巴经济合作。
在离间中巴关系这一企图上，西方一开始是打算利用新疆问题，声称维吾尔族穆斯林受到虐待，并以此为幌子，暗示巴基斯坦应该与中国保持距离。
有一个荒谬的报道给我留下了深刻印象。接受采访的所谓“专家”拿出照片声称，在新疆被囚禁、戴上手铐、被限制在房间里不允许自由活动。
试问，既然不允许做任何事情，那他是如何拿到手机拍照，还通过卫星互联网与世界分享照片？这说不通，这些都是西方为自己的特定议程而宣传的毫无根据的谎言。
2020年10月，中企承建的巴基斯坦拉合尔轨道交通橙线项目开通运营，标志着巴基斯坦步入“地铁时代”。图源：视觉中国
围绕中巴经济走廊的“债务陷阱”的叙事也是如此。实际情况与所他们所捏造的故事根本不相符。巴基斯坦的开伯尔-普赫图赫瓦省（KPK）、旁遮普省和其他地区都没有经历所谓的“债务陷阱”。
与以往不同，我们如今处在一个互联互通和数字化的新时代，信息传播的速度和广度前所未有。在面对那些宣传叙事时，我们不能仅仅作出反应，而应主动采取行动，与其单纯否定，不如要求对方提供具体的数据和证据。
同时，我们也应该积极地提出我们自己的叙事，避免陷入“反叙事”的循环中。
当他们说“债务陷阱”时，我们应该强调“债务减免”，要告诉世界中国在债务减免方面所做的努力。中国的债务减免为第三世界国家提供了额外的资源，帮助了它们偿还世界银行和国际货币基金组织等西方金融机构的贷款，这正是中国施以的援手。
你为什么会问我关于债务陷阱的问题？当你问这个问题时，意味着西方叙事的宣传效果正在变得越来越强烈和明显。他们会说，你看，所有人都在谈论“债务陷阱”，这说明它是一个真实存在的问题。
在这个过程中，我们必须非常谨慎地辨别那些在信息不足情况下传播的叙事。我们必须要自己所传播的信息负责，避免陷入“反叙事”的循环中。因此，在讨论时，我们可以避免使用“债务陷阱”这样的宣传术语，而是强调中国在债务减免方面所做的努力。
让我们开始积极主动地表达我们的观点吧，不要陷入到“反叙事”的逻辑陷阱里，这样做会无意中强化西方的叙事，他们就是故意引导人们谈论这些话题来达到宣传目的，这在中巴关系的例子中很明显。
当他们对中国的人权问题指指点点时，我们应该直指他们在人权问题上劣迹斑斑的事实。比如，他们是诚心诚意地关注穆斯林的福祉吗？从来没有。他们的犯罪前科历历在目，在伊拉克、阿富汗、利比亚、叙利亚等地，他们杀害了成千上万的穆斯林，他们只是试图利用穆斯林的名义在我们两国之间播下分歧的种子。我们必须掌握叙事的控制权，积极主动，而不是被动反应。
如果我们不正面解决这些问题，它们就会在公众的心中播下混乱的种子。尽管巴中友谊很稳固，但在“信息爆炸”的时代，并非每个人都能获得全面的信息，这可能导致人们受到西方宣传攻势的影响，对于何为真实、何为虚假感到困惑，这也正是我们需要建立自己叙事的原因。我们必须使用好各种工具来准确反映现实。
“输不起”就耍赖
知事：当前，全球很多讨论都指向全球化将退潮，“脱钩断链”的声音不断。在这种情况下，中巴将要向世界传递怎样的声音？两国要如何加强合作，加强互联互通？
沙克文·艾哈迈德·拉马伊：这轮反全球化浪潮揭示了一个明确的信息：当西方国家发现自己在原本占优势的领域地位不保时，他们往往会反对促进全球化的举措。
此前，西方国家宣扬全球化的好处，是因为他们觉得自己的企业能在贸易和服务领域稳赚不赔、永保领先。但现在情况发生了变化。
中国已经在量子计算、人工智能、5G、6G等技术方面处于领先地位。对于西方国家来说，技术就是立身之本，现在突然发现自己无法维持主导地位和技术优势了，他们就开始抵制全球化。
对于西方国家来说，技术就是它们的立身之本，它们通过技术控制世界。但现在，中国的影响力已经通过华为这样的大公司日益扩大，华为在全球科技领域发挥着重要作用。全球技术格局的这种转变挑战了西方之前的主导地位，因此他们开始抵制全球化。这种抵制的根源可以追溯到他们对失去技术优势的担忧。
在白宫举行的一次会议上，美国前总统特朗普明确表示，美国不能容忍任何国家在现代技术上超过美国。这种情绪反映出，当其他国家似乎在某些领域要超过美国时，他们就感到焦躁不安。过去，西方国家支持全球化，强调新技术的好处。然而，随着其他国家，尤其是中国，开始在这些技术上表现出色，形势就完全变了。
华为的遭遇就是典例。尽管华为等中国公司通过了众多安全性测试，但西方各国一直在齐心协力遏制它们的影响力。
尤其是美国，不愿让华为与西方的公司竞争。这种不愿源于心虚，他们认为自己恐怕赢得与华为的竞争，从而做出了施加禁令、指责和试图玷污华为声誉等下策。
近期，美国五角大楼采取多项行动加快技术升级，以提高美国公司的技术实力。他们还推出了一些非常规举措，其中包括成立专门致力于这一目标的安全机构，这些举措的矛头多指向中国。
7月31日，巴基斯坦总理夏巴兹·谢里夫在中巴经济走廊启动十周年庆祝活动上发表讲话。图源：视觉中国
在这种背景下，中国表现出了非凡的耐心，积极发展经济关系，营造开放的环境。同时，中国在全球化进程中扮演着领跑者的角色，是多边主义的倡导者。巴基斯坦也希望在中巴经济走廊框架内作出重要贡献。巴基斯坦有能力，也愿意发挥积极作用。
中巴两国都热烈欢迎其他国家参与中巴经济走廊建设。研究表明，中巴经济走廊贸易简化了贸易流程，减少了运输成本。互联互通的强化无疑将使参与的国家受益匪浅。正是出于这个原因，巴基斯坦鼓励其他国家加入中巴经济走廊，中方对此表示赞赏。
中方多次强调，中国将在全球事务中持续发挥引领作用并展现出推动多边合作的强烈愿望。这与过去大不相同，很明显，中国现在站在全球化的中心。
此外，巴基斯坦的战略位置至关重要，位于各地区互联互通的关键节点上——北面毗邻中亚，南面与南亚相连，一侧通往海湾和阿拉伯国家。这一地缘战略定位使巴基斯坦能够成为全球互联互通的中心枢纽，巴基斯坦已做好充分准备扮演这一角色。
“一带一路”倡议具有显著增强贸易互联互通、进一步推进全球化进程的势能。这不仅仅是一个理论论断。一项综合研究表明，利用中巴经济走廊与中国进行贸易可以带来实实在在的好处。它简化了贸易流程，为通往中国的贸易提供了直接而强大的基础设施，由此产生的效应也为相关国家带来了可观的收益。这项研究横跨中东和欧洲的六个国家，包括沙特阿拉伯、阿曼、希腊、荷兰、法国和德国，清楚地展示了利用中巴经济走廊与中国进行贸易的优势。
通过中巴经济走廊进行贸易将减少运输成本、压缩运输时间。以前，一个集装箱的综合运输费用高达1000美元。随着中巴经济走廊的落地，这一成本预计将下降至每个集装箱600到700美元。同样，过去需要20天的运输时间，现在只需10天，节省了大量的时间成本。
该研究还对潜在的成本节约进行了量化。据估计，截至2016年，通过中巴经济走廊与这六个国家进行贸易，每年仅在运输成本方面就可以节省高达720亿美元。这代表着巨大的经济利益，凸显了中巴经济走廊的重大效益。中国和巴基斯坦都是全球化的积极倡导者，都在以实际行动挖掘和释放全球化势能。
以下为采访英文全文：
TheShakeelAhmadRamayInterview:PakistanRejectsProvocation
TheUnitedStatesisgrowingincreasinglywaryofthe"BeltandRoadInitiative."OnSeptember9th,PresidentBidenannouncedduringtheG20SummitinNewDelhisaidthattheU.S.hadsignedagreementswithIndia,MiddleEasterncountries,andtheEuropeanUniontoconstructarailwaynetworkandmaritimeroutesconnectingrelevantcountries.
AsnotedbytheNationalPublicRadio,Bidenseesthisasa"region-changinginvestment,"highlightingitasoneofBiden'sstrategiestocounterChina's"BeltandRoadInitiative."
Anotherapproachinvolvesfinancialsystemreform.Asearlyaslastmonth,theU.S.governmenthintedthatBidenwouldpushforglobalfinancialinstitutionreformattheG20,usingrhetoricaboutChina"creatingdebttraps"topersuadedevelopingcountriestodistancethemselvesfromcooperationwithChina.TheAssociatedPressevenpublishedanextensivearticletitled"China’sloanspushingworld’spoorestcountriestothebrinkofcollapse,"assertingthatcountrieslikePakistan,SriLanka,andKenyaare"victims."
HasChinatrulyensnaredcountrieslikePakistanina"debttrap"?Inrecentyears,certainWesterncountrieshavefrequentlyattemptedtosowdiscordbetweenChinaandPakistan,tarnishingtheChina-PakistanEconomicCorridor.HowshouldweviewtheseattemptstodisruptChina-Pakistanirelations?IstheChina-Pakistanrelationshipabletowithstandsuchtests?
IncollaborationwithRDCY,CapitalNewshaslaunchedthe"GlobalGovernanceForum"section.ShakeelAhmadRamay,chiefexecutiveofficerofAsianInstituteofEcocivilizationinPakistan,sharedhisviewswithusontopicssuchasso-calleddebttrap,theimpactoftheBeltandRoadInitiative,andChina-Pakistanrelations.
BeltandRoadInitiative
CapitalNews：Thisyearmarksthe10thanniversaryoftheBeltandRoadInitiative.AndthisyearalsomarksthetenthanniversaryoftheinitiationoftheChina-PakistanEconomicCorridor(CPEC).CPECisapilotprojectundertheBeltandRoadinitiative.WhatisyouroverallimpressionoftheBeltandRoadInitiative?WhatkindofbenefitshasPakistanseenfromtheBeltandRoadInitiativeorCPEC?Canyougiveafewexamples?
ShakeelAhmadRamay:It'sessentialtoreflectonthecircumstancesattheoutsetoftheBeltandRoadInitiative(BRI)toappreciateitsimpacttruly.Weneedtoexaminetheworld'schallengesandthevariousissuesplaguinghumanityatthattime.Bydoingso,wecanbetterunderstandwhatBRIhasbroughttotheworldandhowithasbenefitedit.
Firstofall,ifweconsiderthestateofaffairsbackthen,povertyrateswereontherise,andfoodinsecuritywasasignificantconcern.Over800millionpeopleweregrapplingwithfoodinsecurity,andbillionslackedaccesstosafedrinkingwater.Whenitcomestoelectricityandenergy,billionsofindividualsdidnothaveaccesstoreliableandaffordablepowersources.
Additionally,ifyoulookattheinfrastructure,theinfrastructuredeficitwasglaringlyevident,withanestimatedgapininfrastructureinvestmentexceeding$5trillion.Thequestionthatbeggedananswerwaswhythisgapininvestmentpersisted.Peopleworldwidewereyearningforsomeonetostepforwardandcontributetobridgingthisinvestmentgap,bringingaboutpositivechangeinthelivesofthoseaffected.Thiswasseenasacriticalstepinalleviatingpovertyandaddressingfoodinsecuritypromptly.
Moreover,wealsoneedtounderstandthegraduallyenhancedengagementofChinasince1978.mustconsiderthecontext.First,Chinaaddresseditsownissuesthroughreformsanddedicatedwork,whilegraduallyopeninguptotheworld.Duringtheperiod,ChinawasexploringawaytoconstructsocialismwithChinesecharacteristics.However,after1992,ittookonamoreglobalperspectiveespeciallyafterthelaunchofGoGlobalPolicy.
However,PresidentXiJinping’sleadershipmadeanevermoresignificantshiftinChina’sattitudetowardsglobalissues.HerealizednowwehavetoexploresocialismwithChinesecharacteristicsbyintegratingintoaglobalissueandbypullingtogetherandshareourprosperitywithothercountries.Why?Becauseatthattime,in2012-13,Chinahadbecometheworld'ssecond-largesteconomyandtheworld’slargesttradingpartner.Chinawasholdingacentralpositionontheglobalstage.TherewasarealizationthatChinacouldn'tprogresswithouttakingonglobalresponsibilitiesandsharingitsprosperity.Chinahastotakecareoftheneedsofmankindasawhole.HerecomesanentirelynewvisionwhenthePresidentXiJinpinghasputforwarda‘communitywithasharedfutureformankind.'
Underthisvision,ChinalaunchedtheBeltandRoadInitiative(BRI),whichhassincechangedChina’sgloballayoutsignificantly.
Reportsfromvariousinstitutions,includingtheWorldBankin2018-19,suggestthattheBRIhaspositivelyimpacted.TheWorldBank'sassessmentindicatedthateverycountryoftheworld,eitherparticipatingornot,intheBRIcouldexpectapositivechangeintheirGDP.
Trade,bolsteredbyimprovedinfrastructure,hasalsocontributedtothesepositivechanges.Furthermore,tradeimprovements,coupledwithfavorablesoft-sidepoliciesarepoisedtosignificantlyfacilitateglobaltrade.It'sprojectedthataround40millionpeopleworldwidewillbeliftedoutofextremepovertythankstotheBRI,withthemajorityofthemresidingindevelopingandleast-developedcountries.
Theyalsodiscussedthepotentialforinfrastructureandotherformsofconnectivityimprovement.I'mreferringtoreportsfromtheWorldBank,notgovernmentreportsfromChinaoranyfriendlycountrieslikePakistan.Thisisanassessmentfromaninternationalinstitution,theWorldBank,whichhighlightsthepositivecontributionsoftheBeltandRoadInitiative(BRI).
Intheyear2018-19,Chinahadanotherrealizationthatwhilepursuingthedreamofdevelopmentandcollaborationinaglobalcontext,Chinamustrecognizethecrucialimportanceofenvironmentalprotectionandtheurgentneedofaddressingclimatechange.Chinaunderstoodthatachievingprosperityandsustainablepeaceanddevelopmentrequiredacommitmenttoenvironmentalsustainabilityandaddressingclimatechange.Chinaisbothwillingandabletotacklesuchissues.
ThisledChinatoexpandthecontentofBRIduringthe2ndBeltandRoadForumforInternationalCooperation.Chinaestablishedvariousmechanisms,includingoneofthelargestforumsforInternationalCoalitionforGreenDevelopmentontheBeltandRoad,wherebyalltheBRIcountriesareempoweredtodedicatedtopursueagreenerwayofdevelopment.
Subsequently,Chinasetitselfanexampletoothercountriesbybeginningreducinginvestmentsincoalandfossilfuels,shiftingtowardscleanandrenewableenergysourcessuchaswind,solar,andhydropower.Chinaalsoinvestedingreenindustrieswithminimalemissions.
LookingbackoverthepastdecadeoftheBeltandRoadInitiative,therehavebeennumerouspositivechangesworthcelebrating.
CapitalNews：ThankyouverymuchforyourrecognitionoftheBeltandRoadInitiative.WashingtonassertthatChina'sdevelopmentfinancingtoPakistanandotherBRIrecipientsisadebt-trap.thisWhatyouropinionregardingtotheperceptionofChinacominginbypredatoryfinancingandweakeningahostcountryandgainingpoliticalinfluence?DoyouthinkBRIpushingPakistanintoa"debttrap"?
ShakeelAhmadRamay:Fromaneconomicperspective,it'scrucialtoassesswhichtypesofdebtcanpotentiallybecometraps.Specifically,weneedtoexaminethenatureoftheseloans.Notallloansareeconomicallysustainable,andsomecanindeedleadtodebtsustainabilityissuesandpotentiallyresultinadebttrap.
However,ifwelookattheloansundertheBeltandRoadInitiative(BRI),theydifferfromnon-productiveloansthatdoesnotgenerateanyincomeforthesecountries’people.Theseloansareproductiveinnature,primarilydirectedtowardsessentialsectorslikeenergy.Energyisafundamentalrequirementforindustriesandbusinesses,andinvestmentsinthisareacancreatesignificanteconomicopportunities.
Furthermore,whenweconsidertheindustriesthatChinaisinvestinginundertheBRI,theyaretypicallyintheproductionsectorofthesecountries.Additionally,theinfrastructureinvestments,suchasroadinfrastructure,playavitalroleinenhancingconnectivity.
Becauseinthemodernera,connectivityisakeyindicatorofacountry'sdevelopmentstatus.Nationswithbetterconnectivitycanattractinvestmentsandbusinesses,whilethosewithweakconnectivity,theycannotattracttheinvestmenttowardstheircountry.Sothesekindsofloansareproductivethatcanfacilitatethesecountries’development.Thisisonething.
Foranotherthing,it'sworthnotingthatmostBRIprogramsarestructuredasinvestmentprograms.Toillustrate,let'staketheexampleofPakistan,whereinitialnegotiationsbetweenPakistanandChinaamountedto$62billion.However,only$5.7billionofthiswasintheformofloans.ThatmeansthemajorityoftheBRIfundinginthecountrywasallocatedtoinvestmentprojects,whicharelesslikelytoposeariskofdebttrap.
Thisquestionreferstoafundamentalissueregardingdebttraps.It'simportanttounderstandwhycertaindebtisnotlikelytobecomeadebttrap.InthecaseofPakistan,outofthe$62billion,$5.7billionwasallocatedtotheenergysector.ThisinvestmentwasparticularlysignificantbecausePakistanwasgrapplingwithaworsttypeofenergycrisis,incurringannuallossesoffourtofivebillionUSdollarsduetoelectricityloadshedding.
Thedebtplayedapivotalroleinrebalancingthesituationbyprovidingastableandavailableaccesstoelectricityfortheindustries,fosteringpositivechangesinbusinessesandpeople'slives.
Inessence,itwasaproductiveinvestmentwherebythecountryanditspeoplecangeneratesincomeinthegrowingindustriesboostedbytheseinvestment,andfromaneconomicstandpoint,productivedebtstypicallydonotleadtodebttrapsaslongasthecountrycancapitalizeontheopportunitiesitofferstocreatemorejobsandthusstimulateahealthyeconomicgrowth.
Lookingatotherexamplesaroundtheworld,particularlytheSriLankacasethatoftencomesupinWesternmediadiscussionsasaso-calledvictimofChina’sdebttrap,buttheydon'ttellusthedataofhowthedebtthecountryisbearingisconstituted.It'scrucialtoconsiderthedata.AmatteroffactthattheseWesternmediawouldnotliketorevealisnearly50%ofSriLanka'sdebtcomesfromWesternprivatefinancialinstitutions,whichposedarealchallengeforSriLanka.
Furthermore,Westerninstitutionstendtoofferloansathigherinterestratesandhavestricterrepaymentterms.Theindebtedcountrieshavetopaybackatthetimewhenrequiredbecausetheseloansarenotcountry-to-country,theyarethecompanytothecountry.Theseloansareofferedbysomecompany,suchascommercialbanks,tothesecountries.Sothecountriesthatyoucannotnegotiatewiththemonequalfooting.
Incontrast,Chinesedebtaccountedforjustover10%ofSriLanka'stotaldebtfromAsianDevelopmentBank.Furthermore,ChinesetermswereoftenmorefavorablethanthoseoftheWesterninstitutions.Sohowonly10%ofChina'sdebtisaproblem?That'sall,allthethingsareveryokay.Ican'tunderstandandIcan'tfigureoutanyeconomicrationalehowtheycanjustifyitastrap.Inotherwords,suchallegationofdebttrapisgroundless.
Let'stakeacloserlookattheZambiaexample.Itwasn'taChinesecompanythatapproachedtheChinesegovernmentoranyChinesecompanyinfluencingtheZambiangovernmenttosellitselectricitysupplycompany.Instead,itwastheIMFadvisingtheZambiangovernmentonthismatter.
Ifweexamineexamplesfromaroundtheworld,agrowingtrendofChina’sinvestmentinothercountriesemerges.WhenChineseinvestmentsflowintoAfrica,theyoftencontributetoenhancedproductivityandcollectivedevelopment.Chinesecompaniesfrequentlyinvestincapacitybuildingfortheiremployeesandlocalcommunities,whichisavitalaspectoftheirapproachtocooperatewiththesecountries.
Infact,similarobservationscanbemadeinvariousregionsacrosstheglobe.SomeAmericaninstitutionsconductedstudiesonChina’soverseasinvestments,likeJohnsHopkinsUniversityintheUSA,whichhasexaminedChineseinvestmentprojectsindifferentpartsoftheworld,includingAfrica,LatinAmerica,andAsia.Thesestudiesfoundnoinstancesofdebttraps.
TheseAmericaninstitutionscouldn'tidentifyanyexamplesofsuchtraps.TheyonlypointedafingertowardtheSriLankacasewhichIalreadydescribed.It'sessentialtodistinguishbetweenpropagandaandverifiablefactsanddata.Youmayhearalotofclaimsonthepropagandaside,butifyoutalkaboutfactsanddata,youwillnotfindanything.Sothatisthewholestory.
CapitalNews：FromwhatIknow,Chinaisn'tthebiggestcreditortodevelopingcountries.WhydoyouthinktheWesterncountriesarehypingupthe"Chinesedebttrap"theory?
ShakeelAhmadRamay:Chinahasopenedupsignificantlyinrecenttimes.It'sclearthattheyarenotcomfortablewithanycountryreachingandexceedinganextremelevelofcontrolorbeingsubjectedtowhattheyperceiveasthedominanceorevenaformofeconomicservitudeimposedbyWesterncountries.SoChinahasshakenandchallengedthishegemony.
AsChinacontinuestogrow,itaimstoensurethatnocountryissubjecttosuchlevelsofcontrol.ThisstancesignifiesChina'sdivergencefromWesterninfluence.
Moreover,Westerncountrieshavelongpropagatedtheideaofaliberaleconomicorder,suggestingthatthisistheonlyviablerecipefortheworld.They'veemphasizedthatliberalWestern-styledemocracyistheultimatesolutionforgovernanceofcountry.Conversely,Chinahasdemonstratedtotheworldthatdifferentmodelscanthriveandprosper.Theyarguethatmodelsofgovernanceshouldbedevelopedaccordingtoanation'suniqueneeds,culture,circumstances,andperspectives.Inessence,Chinahaschampioneditsownideology,divergingfromtheWesternnarrativethataliberaleconomicorderandliberaldemocracyarethesolepathstosuccess.
ThisideologicalshiftbecamemorepronouncedaftertheUSSR'scollapse,leadingtodiscussionsaboutthe'endofhistory'whereonlyliberaleconomicsandliberaldemocracywouldreignsupreme.China'salternativemodelhasraisedconcernsintheWest,asitchallengesthepreviouslydominantnarrative.Sothat'swhythewesterncountriesstartedtofeelthreatenedbythealternativefromtheChineseside.
Secondly,Chinahasofferedhopetodevelopingcountriesbyprovidingthemwiththeopportunitytopursuetheirdevelopmentprojectswithoutimposingtermsandconditions.ChinadoesnotpreachlessonsindemocracyorlecturesontheruleoflawandothermatterstothesecountriesastheseWesternersdoes.Instead,Chinapresentsanoptiontotheworld:let'sworktogetheroneconomicprogresswithoutmeddlingineachother'sownaffairs.ChinanotonlyfreeditselffromWesternhegemonybutalsoassistsothercountriesinbreakingfreefromsuchhegemonicbehaviorsandattitudes.
Chinahasemphasizedthispointofviewonnumerousoccasionsatinternationalforums,advocatingagainstbullyinganddictatingothercountries'whattodoandwhatnotnottodo.Chinafirmlybelievesthateverycountryhastherighttomakeitsowndecisions.Ittellsothercountriestobeconfidentofthetheoryandinstitutionsoftheirownbykeepingtheirsovereigntyandindependenceintact.AndthisalignswiththesenseofconfidenceinChinesesocialism,asobservedwithinChina.Sothewestdefinitelydon'tlikeit,becausetheyareeasilyextractingdevelopingcountries’sourcesthroughthehegemonicworldorder.
Furthermore,ChinadiffersfromtheWestinitsapproachtodevelopment.Westernwaystodevelopment,historically,involvedtheexploitationofresourcesfromdevelopingcountriesthroughcolonizationandresourcetheft.Incontrast,Chinahasdevelopedthroughhardworkanddoesnotengageinresourceplunder.Infact,Chinahelpsothercountriesprotecttheirresources.Thesefundamentaldifferencesupsetthe‘applecart’ofWesterncountries,astheyhavehistoricallysoughttocontroltheworldandhindertheindependentdevelopmentofothernations.
Lastly,Westernmodelsandeconomiesareofteninfluencedbythemilitary-industrialcomplex,whichtendstointerfereinvariouscountriesundertheguiseofdemocracyorotheragendas.ThisinterferencesometimescontradictstheprinciplesofdemocracyupheldbyWesterncountriesthemselves.Intheirinterferencetoaspecificcountry’spolitics,sometimesthereisforonecandidate,othertimethisforothercandidates.Westerncountriestendtosupportspecificcandidatesonthepretextofdemocracyorotherissues,pressuringthemtoheedtheirinterestsandprovidethemwithadvantagesinthereal-world.
Failuretocomplytosuchinterferencemayleadtoconcernsabout'colorrevolutions,'aswe'vewitnessedinmanycountrieswhererevolutionsaredrivenbyinternalforcesbutcanserveexternalagendas.
However,inthecaseofChina,thereisnosuchthinglikethat.TheunityamongChina'sleaders,fosteredbytheCPC,preventsexternalinterferenceinChineseaffairs.
China'spoliticalsystem,characterizedbytheCPC'sleadership,makesitdifficultforthemilitary-industrialcomplexormajorindustriestomanipulateChinesepolitics.ChineseleadershipemphasizesthatifothercountriessupportChina,theywillreceivesupportinreturn,butthissupportdoesn'tinvolvemeddlinginChina'sinternalmatters.
InChina,thereexistsaunityamongleaders,everybodyhasagoodchancetocometothepower.TheseaspectsoftencontrastwiththeWesternperspectiveandraisequestionsamongWesternobservers.
CapitalNews:TheChina-PakistanEconomicCorridor(CPEC)hassuccessfullycompleteditsinitialphase,primarilyaddressingPakistan'scriticalinfrastructureandenergyshortages.Now,ithasenteredthesecondphaseofhigh-qualitydevelopment,aimingtoinitiatenewcollaborationsinmultipleareas.Inyourperspective,whatdoyoubelievewillbethekeyfocusofcooperationinthissecondphase?
ShakeelAhmadRamay:Inthesecondphase,whichspans2to3years,withaprimaryfocusontheinitial2years,thereareseveralkeyareasoffocus.Firstandforemostisindustrialization.Inthisphase,ChinaandPakistanhavecommittedtokickstartingtheindustrializationprocess,beginningwiththeestablishmentofspecialeconomiczones.Duringtheinitialstage,therewasaneedtodevelopbasicinfrastructure,includingenergyandruralinfrastructure,whichhaslargelybeencompleted.
ThesecondphaseaimstofurtherboostandstrengthenPakistan'sproductioncapacity.BothcountriesareworkingtogethertofacilitatethepotentialshiftofsomeindustriesfromChinatoPakistan,aswellasencourageincreasedinvestmentsinPakistan.
Anothercriticalareaofcooperationisagriculture.AgriculturecooperationisveryimportantforPakistan,becauserightnowPakistanisanagriculture-basedeconomy.Agriculturedirectlycontributesover20%toournationalGDPandhasasubstantialindirectcontribution.ThissectorisvitalforPakistan'smainexports,suchastextiles,cottonbeingafundamentalelementinthetextileindustry,aswellasotherrawmaterialslikeleatherproducts,rice,mangoes,andmore.
ThethirdfocusareaistheadoptionofelementsfromtheFourthIndustrialRevolution.ChinaandPakistanareplacingastrongemphasisonscienceandtechnologyinthecomingyears.RecentdevelopmentsshowChinesecompaniesoperatinginPakistan,andbothgovernmentsarecollaboratingtoenhancethetechnologicalcapacityofPakistaniinstitutions.Chinaisalsofacilitatingstudentexchanges,invitingPakistanistudentstostudyinChinaaspartofcapacity-buildingefforts.
Whilethereareotherareasofcooperation,suchastourismandenergy,theprimaryfocusofChinaandPakistanremainsonthesecoresectors.
China-Pakistanrelations
CapitalNews:InChina,werefertoPakistanas"BaTie,"Haveyoucomeacrossthistermbefore?Itindicatestheclosebondbetweenthetwonations.
ShakeelAhmadRamay:Wesaybrotherhood.
CapitalNews:HowdoyouviewthecurrentstateofChina-Pakistanrelations,andwhatroledoyoubelieveitplaysinbilateralcooperationbetweenthetwocountries?
ShakeelAhmadRamay:Firstofall,weneedtounderstandoneveryimportantfactthatChina-Pakistanrelationscannotbeexamined,analyzedandunderstoodintermsoftraditionaltheoriesofinternationalrelations.SomeoftheuniquerelationsthatPakistanhashadforageneration,andIthinkthatChina-Pakistanrelationsarebasedonmutualrespectandmutualconcern.
Ifyoureviewthehistorymanytimes,youwillfindthatwhenChinacame,PakistanwouldhelpChina,andsometimesChinawouldhelpPakistaninturn,butwhatisimportantduringthatperiodwasthatbothcountrieswereatthecenteroftheirrespect.Thetwocountriesdidnottrytoshowcondescendingattitudestowardseachother,andrathertheyfosteredbrotherlytieswitheachotherandcaredforeachother.Thatconstitutesabasicelementofmutualrespect,whichisthestandofChina-Pakistanrelationsbecausewefeelforeachotherifoneisconfrontedwithsomeproblems,theotherwillcomeforwardasahelpfulbrother,notasaby-standingoutsider.
AsthePresidentXiJinpingstatedduringhisvisittoPakistanin2015,hesaidhisfirsttriptoPakistanislikevisitingthehomeofhis“ownbrother.”Thisisaverysignificantstatement,andifyoulookaroundthewayChinainteractwithothercountriesandthewayChinadealswithinternationalrelations,Chinadoesnotusesuchwordforanyothercountries,andthatistosaywhenChinausetheword,itreallymeansabrotherhood.China-PakistanrelationsisfundamentallydifferentfromwhattheWesterncountriesseesontheirinternationalrelations,becauseintheWesterntheoryandpracticesofinternationalrelation,interestsisthekeyelement,whichisbeforeandaboveall,andthereisnoroomforfriendship,theygoessomewhereonlywhentheycangaininterests.
InChineseideology,theessentialfeatureofChina’sinteractionwithothercountriesintermsofinternationalrelationsismutualrespectratherthaninterests,thoughitisnottosaythatChinadon'tseekinterest.
IremembersooneoftheChineseforIthefinanceministerhesaidinthe1980s,hesaidwhenwedobusinesswhicharePakistan,wedon'tdoitatthebusiness.Wedoisatthebrotherhoodandotherwayaround.Sowedon'tkeepprofitatthecenterofourbusinesstransactions.Wekeepsomethingelsethatisourrelationshipifyoulookatallduringthehistory.Sothisrelationshipgetsstrongerwitheachandeverycrisisifyoulookaround.
ThereisanotherearliercaseepitomizesPakistan-Chinarelations.Irememberthatitwasinthe1980sChina’sthenfinanceministersayingthatwhenChinadobusinesswithPakistan,theydon'tdoitmerelyinthewayofbusinessbutinthewayofbrotherhood,andtheydon'tkeeptheirrelationshipwithPakistaninsteadofprofitatthecenteroftheirbusinesstransactions.Throughoutthehistory,thisrelationshipgetsstrongerwitheachandeverycrisis.ItcanbetakenthatPakistanandChinastoodtogetherinearly1970s,andbackthenitwasPakistanwhobroketheriftbetweenChinaandUSA,whichledtoChina’sintegrationintotheworldsystem.ItwasPakistanwhogaveChinatheimportantsupportforitsseatintheUNin1960s,whichhelpChinatoconnectwiththeworld.
SoifyoulookatChina,youwillseethatChinahasbeeninvestinginPakistan.EvenbeforeCPEC,Chinesecompanieshadinvested10to15billiondollarsinPakistan.AfterCPEC,thewholedynamicshasbeenchanged.Asaresult,bothcountrieshavemademutualrespectacoreelement.AndIfindthateachofthetwocountriesisnotlikethatoutside.Ifthat'sthecase,therelationshipwillgrowtogetherandwillonlygetstrongeratthebestoftimes.
CapitalNews：Thesedays,alotoftalkworldwideispointingtowards“Slowbalization”.Itmeanstradeopennessslowed,andweakeningpoliticalsupportforopentradeamidrisinggeopoliticaltensions.Atthesametime,therearemoreandmorevoicesadvocatingfordecouplingandcuttingoffindustrialandsupplychains.
whatmessagedoyouthinkChinaandPakistanwillconveytotheworld?HowcanbothChinaandPakistanenhancecooperationandstrengthenconnectivityinthiscontext?
ShakeelAhmadRamay:Theanti-globalizationcampaignrevealsaclearmessage:whenWesterncountriesfinditchallengingtodominateafield,theytendtoopposeinitiativesthatpromoteglobalization.Westernnationshavehistoricallyadvocatedforglobalization,toutingitsbenefitsandemphasizingtheadvantagesitbringstotheircompanies,trade,andbusinesspartnerships.Why?Becausetheywerefeelingtheircompanieswillbewinning,andbelievedtheywouldbetheprimarybeneficiaries,leadingintradeandservices,nocountrycancompetethem.Sotheysaylet'spromotethecompetition,let'spromotetheglobalization.
However,withtheriseofChinaandotherdevelopingcountries,theoveralllandscapehasshifted.Westerncountriesbegantofeelthattheycouldn'tmaintaintheirdominanceinmanyfields.TheyencounteredformidablecompetitionfromcountrieslikeChina,whichhadsurgedahead.China,inparticular,hasbecometheworld'slargesttradepartnerandaleaderinvarioustechnologies,includingquantumcomputing,artificialintelligence,5G,6G,andmore.
Forwesterncountries,technologywasthebasisoftheirruleandtheywereholdingtheworldthroughthemonopolyoftechnology.ButnowChina'sinfluenceextendstomanytechnologiesthroughmajorcompanieslikeHuawei,whichplaysasignificantroleinglobaltechnology.ThisshiftintheglobaltechnologicallandscapestoodachancetooverturntheWest'spreviousdominance,andtheybegantoresistglobalizationasaresult.Therootsofthisresistancecanbetracedbacktotheirapprehensionabouttheirlosingoftechnologicaledge.
DuringaconferenceattheWhiteHouse,formerU.S.PresidentDonaldTrumpmadeitclearthattheUnitedStatescouldnottolerateanycountrysurpassingitinmoderntechnologies.ThissentimentreflectstheirdiscomfortwhenothernationsappeartobeoutpacingtheU.S.incertainareas.Inthepast,Westerncountrieschampionedglobalization,emphasizingthebenefitsofnewtechnologiesfordevelopingcountries.However,asothercountries,particularlyChina,begantoexcelinthesetechnologies,thedynamicsexperiencedanabout-faceshift.TherehavebeenconcertedeffortstocurbthegrowinginfluenceofChinesecompanieslikeHuawei,despiteithaspassednumeroussecuritytests.
Westerncountries,particularlytheUnitedStates,arereluctanttoallowHuaweitocompetewithAmericanandWesternfirms.ThishesitancyarisesfromthebeliefthattheycannoteffectivelycompetewithHuawei,withoutresorttomeasureslikelegalbans,criticism,andattemptstotarnishthecompany'sreputation.
Westernnationsareincreasinglyconcernedabouttheirwaningcompetitivenessineconomicmatters.Thisconcernisevidentinrecentinitiatives,PentagonmakesmovestospeeduptechtransitiontoenhancingthetechnologicalcapabilitiesofAmericancompanies.Thisunconventionalapproachinvolvesasecurityagencyworkingtoboostthecompetitivenessoftechnologycompanies,evenastheypointfingersatChina.
Inthiscontext,Chinaisdisplayingremarkablepatienceandactivelycultivatingeconomicrelationships.Itisfosteringanenvironmentofopenness.Meanwhile,Chinaisspearheadingtheglobalizationprocessandadvocatingformultilateralism.Chinaisgoingtobeproactiveandtaketheleadinglobalreforms,demonstratinganeagernesstodrivemultilateralefforts.ThismarksadeparturefromChina'spastapproach.
AswediscussChina'scommitmenttoglobalreform,it'sevidentthatChinanowstandsasachampionattheheartofglobalization.Similarly,Pakistanaspirestomakesignificantcontributions,particularlywithintheframeworkoftheChina-PakistanEconomicCorridor(CPEC).PakistancanalsoplayaroleandPakistanisreadytoplaytherole.Thereisnosecondopinion.ThereisunanimousagreementthatCPEChasgreatlyenhancedconnectivitywithinPakistan.
Andinadditiontothat,thestrategiclocationofPakistanisofparamountimportance.Wemustrecognizethatwearesituatedatapivotaljuncture,actingasavitalnodeforconnectivityacrossvariousregions.
Geographically,wehavedirectlinkswithCentralAsiatoournorth,SouthAsiatooursouth,andaccesstoGulfandArabcountriesononeside,whilealsoprovidingagatewaytoNorthAfricaontheother.Thisstrategicpositioningempowersustoserveasacentralhubforglobalconnectivity.
So,Pakistanisfullypreparedtoembracethisrole.BothPakistanandChinaextendinvitationstoothercountriestoparticipateinCPEC.Thisinitiativeholdstheverypotentialtosignificantlyaugmenttradeconnectivityandfurtheradvancetheglobalizationprocess.
Thisisn'tmerelyatheoreticalassertion.AcomprehensivestudyindicatesthatutilizingtheCPECroutefortradewithChinapresentstangiblebenefits.Itstreamlinestheprocess,providingadirectandrobustinfrastructurelinktoChina.This,inturn,yieldssubstantialgainsforcountriesinvolved.Thestudy,whichencompassedsixcountriesincludingthoseintheMiddleEastandEurope,suchasSaudiArabia,Oman,Greece,theNetherlands,France,andGermany,clearlydemonstratestheadvantagesofemployingtheCPECroutefortradewithChina.
Studyhighlightedthatthetraveltimewillbereducedby20daysforOman,21daysforKSA,24daysforKuwait,21daysforNetherlands,21daysforGermanyand21daysforFrancebytradingthroughtheGwadar.
Itissubstantialdecreasewhichwillbefollowedbyreductionincostoftravel.TheresultsofthestudyunderlinedthattherewouldbesavingofUS$1857forOman,US$1457forKSA,US$1457forKuwait,US$1357forHolland,US$1357forGermanyandFranceonpercontainer.ChinacanaccruebenefitsofUS$70billioninsavingonannualbasis.ItwillalsobringgoodrevenueforPakistan.IthasbeenpredictedthatthebenefitswouldbebetweenUS$7-8BilliontoUS$10-12billiononannualbasisinformofservicesandfees.Thisenhancedconnectivitywillundoubtedlybenefitthesecountries.ItispreciselyforthisreasonthatPakistanencouragesotherstoconsiderjoiningCPEC,andChinaechoesthissentiment.Thestudyalsoquantifiesthepotentialsavings.ByutilizingCPECfortradewiththesesixcountriesupuntil2016,itisestimatedthatastaggering72billiondollarscouldhavebeensavedannuallyintransportationcostsalone.Thisrepresentsasignificantfinancialgain,highlightingthesubstantialbenefitsofCPEC.
BothPakistanandChinaareactivelyadvocatingforglobalizationandtakingconcretestepstorealizeitspotential.However,it'simportanttoacknowledgethatsomemayharborreservationsaboutthelong-termimplicationsofglobalization.It'scrucialtoconsiderthatoneapproachalonemaynotsufficetoachievethebestpossibleoutcome.Thisdiversityofopinioniswhythereareopposingviewpoints.
CapitalNews:We’venoticedthatcertainWesterncountrieshavebeentryingtosowdiscordbetweenChinaandPakistaninrecentyears.Forinstance,lastyear,duringtheunprecedentedfloodinginPakistan,AmericanmediastartedspreadingrumorsaboutChinanotfullyassistingPakistaninfloodrelief.Wheneverthere’sasecurityincidentinPakistan,somemaliciousWesternmediaoutletstaketheopportunitytocriticizePakistanandunderminetheChina-PakistanEconomicCorridor.What’syourtakeontheseactionsthataretryingtostirupissuesbetweenChinaandPakistan?Whatdoyouthinktheirendgoalis?DoyouthinkChina-Pakistanrelationshipcanwithstandthesechallenges?
ShakeelAhmadRamay:Thisisnotanewphenomenon.Rightfromtheoutset,it'sclearthatwhileothersmightnothavemaintainedsteadfastfriendshipswithChina,PakistanandChinahavestoodasunwaveringbrothers.Theirbondisnotonlystrongbutcontinuestogrowevenstronger.However,withtheexpansionofCPEC,we'vewitnessedasurgeinpropaganda,maliciouscampaigns,andattemptstohinderouractivities.Evennow,Westerncountries,includingIndia,openlyopposeCPECandhavedeclaredtheirintenttosabotageit.
They'reemployingvariousstrategies.Unlikeinthepast,we'renowinadifferentera—aneraofconnectivityanddigitalization.They'reutilizingnewtoolsthatmightbemorechallengingtocounter,suchasTwitter,Facebook,andthelike.However,fundamentally,theylackthedatatosubstantiatetheirclaims.
Forexample,inPakistan,theyinitiallyraisedconcernsaboutXinjiang,allegingmistreatmentofUighurMuslims.TheyinsistedthatChinawasengagedinegregiouspractices,evengoingasfarasclaimingthatChinawaskillingthem,runningconcentrationcamps,andsuppressingIslamicteachings.TheyusedthisasapretexttosuggestthatPakistanshoulddistanceitselffromChina.Thiswaspurepropaganda.Oneparticularlyinterestingstoryinvolvedacertainphilosopherwhonotonlyendorsedthisnarrativebutpaintedapictureofindividualsbeingconfined,handcuffed,andrestrictedfromfreemovementwithinaroom.
Butonequestion,theyarenotallowedtodoanything,buthowtheycangetamobilephonetotakeapictureandthentheyhavethesatelliteinternetconnectiontosharethepictureswiththeworld.Idon'tseeifsomebodyissomistreated.Theyarenotallowedtodoanythinghowthephotographercanhaveamobile,andalsohasthissatellitemobileconnection.Itdoesn'taddup.Thesearethebaselessclaimspropagatedfortheirownagenda.ThesamegoesforthenarrativesurroundingCPECbeingadebttrap.Therealityonthegrounddoesn'talignwiththenarrativebeingspun.KPK,Punjab,andotherregionsarenotexperiencingthesupposednegativeimpactsthatarebeingasserted.
It'scrucialtobearinmindthatwe'relivinginavastlydifferentworldfromthepast.Wemusttakeaproactivestanceratherthanmerelyreactingtothesepropagandistnarratives.Insteadofoutrightdismissingthem,let'saskforconcretedataandevidence.Let'sengageinaconstructivedebatebasedonfactsandfigures.
Furthermore,weshouldalsobeproactiveinpresentingourownnarrative.Forinstance,whyareyouaskingmeaboutthedebttrap?Becausewhenyouareaskingthisdebttrapquestion,thatmeanstheotherpropagandaisgettingstrongandgettingmorevisibility.Theywillsayeverybodyistalkingaboutthedebttrap,sothereisreallysomeproblems.
It'scrucialforustorecognizethenarrativesbeingpropagatedwithoutbeingfullyinformed.Wemusttakechargeofourownmessagingratherthangettingcaughtinacycleofcounter-narratives.Inthisendeavor,let'srefrainfromusingtermslike'debttrap'whendiscussing.Instead,let'shighlightChina'seffortsindebtreliefandcapacity-buildingwithincountries.China'sassistanceenablesnationstotakeadvantageoftheirownresourcestogenerateincome,aidingintheirabilitytorepayloansfrominstitutionsliketheWorldBankandIMF.SoChinaisprovidingthemdebtrelief.
Inthefaceoftoday'sbarragesofinformation,eventhoughthebondbetweenPakistanandChinaisrobust,confusioncanstillariseamongthegeneralpopulace.Noteveryonehasaccesstocomprehensiveknowledge,whichcanleadtouncertaintyaboutwhatisaccurateandwhatisnot.Thisispreciselywhyweneedtoestablishourownnarratives.Otherwise,theywillstarttobelievethatmaybesomethingisgoingwrong.Therearesomeadultsinthesocialmediafindthatwehavetocomeupwithourownnarrativesnow.It'stimetoproactivelypresentourperspective.
Don'tengageinacounter-narrativeattempt,asdoingsowouldinadvertentlyreinforcetheirnarrative.Theypurposelysteerconversationstowardsthesetopics,andtheywantyoutodiscussthisasmuchasyoucan,hopingtoexploitthemforpropagandapurposes,asisevidentinthecaseofChinaandPakistan.
Wemustavoidfallingintothetrapofreactiveresponses.Whentheyassert'debttrap,'weshouldemphasize'debtrelief.'Whentheyraiseconcernsabouthumanrights,weshouldindeedacknowledgetheimportanceofsuchissueswhilealsoconsideringtheiractionsinotherregions.AretheysinceretoMuslim?Never.TheirsincerityinchampioningthecauseofMuslimsisquestionable,giventheirtrackrecordinvariouscountries.
Theyhavekilled,murderedthousandsandthousandsofMuslimacrosstheworldinIraqandAfghanistan,inLibya,inSyria,herewecanlistnamesofmanyothercountriesthatsufferedfromtheiroutrageousatrocities.Sothey'reusingtheseselectivelypresentedexampletosowdiscordbetweenourcountries,Wemustwrestcontrolofthenarrativeandbeproactive,notreactive.Chinaisnowtakingthelead,demonstratingaproactiveapproachtotheissueofnarrative-building.
Ifwedon'taddresstheseissueshead-on,theymaynotjustremainbenigndiscussions.Theyhavethepotentialtosowconfusioninthemindsofthepublic.IfsomeoneseesapictureofChinawithoutcontext,theymightformmisguidedconclusions.It'simperativethatwedeployvarioustoolstoshapeanarrativethataccuratelyreflectsthereality.
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